12:13:15 Hello.
12:13:17 Hi.
12:13:22 Morning.
12:13:23 Now,
12:13:27 It's already the afternoon here in Europe.
12:13:31 Wow, it's afternoon here too, so
12:13:36 it's probably evening in Zagreb.
12:13:46 A afternoon afternoon it's, it's 513.
12:14:01 Okay, let's give it a few minutes let other people come in.
12:14:28 Have you been to stock me to learn over the weekend for young.
12:14:34 Well, I was going to give it a few more minutes. sit. The official start isn't for another minute.
12:14:41 Yep.
12:14:44 Yeah, and I know is giving a presentation on streaming read out this morning, and they'll be Analia sounds fun. Yeah.
12:15:00 I'm almost finished with all the stuff was Pinterest so I will move back to back some new soon ish now.
12:15:19 Hello, so.
12:15:48 So,
12:15:53 Live from the east coast and Europe.
12:15:56 Oh, it's very nice. Yeah, that's what's it supposed to be it's supposed to go up to 18 Today Salesforce. Yes, yes, I forgot that the Euro USD on Celsius.
12:16:11 Yeah.
12:16:13 Adam go up to 18 today and
12:16:18 sounds nice. We had reinforce the last three days. Yeah.
12:16:25 It's supposed to rain here tomorrow, a little bit on Sunday.
12:16:32 We haven't had much rain this month, they need it.
12:16:40 Grass is all Brown. I mean, really, there's a good motivation to stay at home and to work with enjoy anything else.
12:16:52 Okay.
12:17:00 Oh. Okay, why don't we get started.
12:17:05 Young might be busy for a while still Andre often said he would eat teachers till 12, and then he would try and join in.
12:17:19 So maybe we'll get more people lives as the meeting progresses, but we might as well start.
12:17:26 So, um, the news I have is, and some of you have already heard this, I'm sure, is that we will not be invited to the daisy PRC meeting in May, as we had originally thought
12:17:47 their reasoning is that
12:17:53 the work on the extracted beam line has not progressed, since the last meeting.
12:18:04 Back in November, and they didn't see that there was much point in us making another presentation at this time until there had been some progress with the extract that being one, which is understandable, I think so.
12:18:23 So bit
12:18:27 disappointing but
12:18:30 I think we can move on.
12:18:32 What, what I wanted to raise today is whether or not we should still request.
12:18:40 The letters of support from Peter and Andre, and mark.
12:18:49 And my opinion is that we should do that, send it to the Directorate, and the chair of the PRC.
12:18:58 In any case, even though that we won't be presenting we could send them an updated proposal with the new physics motivations that we have.
12:19:09 And any results that we have and care to incorporate, but I think it's, it's good to, you know, keep them aware keep the interest up and show that there is continued interest from people like in the theoretical groups.
12:19:32 So, but that's open to discussion. So, any comments from.
12:19:39 Sorry Doug when I, when I, when I connected to you, I only heard the word disappointed.
12:19:45 I didn't hear what he said before that everyone's disappointed in you Michael for being so late yeah that's what I feel. No, yeah.
12:19:55 No, it's that we will not I've told you this that we will not be invited to the daisy PRC and May.
12:20:06 Um, so, you know, because there hasn't been any motion on the extracted beam line so they don't see any point in having us.
12:20:16 Make a new presentation or discuss discuss it at this time.
12:20:20 The question is, do we still ask the theoreticians, who have agreed to write letters of support on our behalf to write that now and send it to the daisy Directorate.
12:20:35 And the
12:20:38 chair of the PRC.
12:20:42 And like I said, I think it's possibly a good idea just, but but know that we're still here and there's still interest in two photon exchange.
12:20:54 But we could also wait until November, when the next PRC was likely to be organized.
12:21:02 I know, comments, Michael, I think, one needs to keep the pressure up and demonstrate the interests of all frontiers on, so I'm all for it.
12:21:13 Because if you if you don't do nothing, nothing will happen, that's for sure. Yeah.
12:21:18 On the other hand, if you know you can you can also try to exhaust all your efforts and time and energy.
12:21:26 If a directory is opposed to a project.
12:21:31 We just saw what happens at Jayla when when you are trying to peddle against some headwind continually.
12:21:39 But I think that's too early to to call it. Right.
12:21:43 Yeah, I think there is some headwind
12:21:52 from the machine group.
12:21:55 They've got a new director he's very interested in working on Wakefield acceleration and things like this. And so he doesn't see the extracted beam line on Daisy, two is as a high priority, even though because in the budget but.
12:22:14 So, so we.
12:22:22 there is some political
12:22:21 headwind, if you like.
12:22:28 We'll have to see. No, I'm kind of surprised because this this high multi gv extracted beam for testing purpose that has been mentioned for several years now, right, that has no there's no strong interest to push this, especially since this is all so
12:22:48 much invested in electricity.
12:22:49 Ya know, I think the the motivation is largely there because of the testing facility, there's interest from LA, see, to have such a facility.
12:23:04 But, you know, they switch directors on on the machine side and
12:23:13 shutting it did you want to say something I've got a little blue box on your screen.
12:23:24 You're muted.
12:23:28 Oh, yes. So, what kind of,
12:23:32 I don't know, it's, it's just a little blue box on your picture
12:23:40 asked to unmute, so I was wondering if you were trying to say.
12:23:46 No, not really. Okay. Um, yeah because I'm logging in with another device so.
12:23:53 Yeah.
12:23:55 Thanks. Okay.
12:23:57 Any other comments, then.
12:24:00 Otherwise I'll proceed I'll talk with Peter and Andre, and Mark, and ask them to write the letters and just send them out.
12:24:13 Just keep our interest. Let them know that we're still here.
12:24:21 Okay.
12:24:23 Now I know Patrick, I think you wanted to say, or show me something.
12:24:32 Yeah, I could just give a quick update on the gems, I gave us on Monday as well to the people at this at the Monte Carlo meeting.
12:24:41 So I'm going to share my screen.
12:25:06 Okay, so you can all see my screen. Yeah. Alright, great.
12:25:10 So that's just a symbol schematic of what we're working with so we have citizens for the gems, some we have to Jim planes in front of the perimeter back here.
12:25:20 And this is obviously not the scale but.
12:25:23 So we have a you know a hit in each of the gems and
12:25:28 believe hit in the perimeter and so just trying to reconstruct.
12:25:46 You know what is this x two based off of this x y and x zero and the gems, you know, given certain separation of the gems relative to each other and the caliber So say I just kind of a preliminary
12:25:50 results so enter this is using a resolution of 200 microns for the gems.
12:25:59 And so this is the difference in the expedition for the reconstructed, and the, the actual position in the perimeter.
12:26:10 And similar for the Y here.
12:26:13 This is using a million events, and then using those two, we get this, you know, total position, the difference of the total position between the reconstructed in the actual position.
12:26:31 Yeah. And for those who were at the software meeting on Monday, I, I had showed this plot but it was not right there is this kind of weird offset and that was just a bug in the code that I was able to fix so this.
12:26:45 This is actually, you know, Sir Patrick.
12:26:51 It's really meters or.
12:26:53 Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, the scale, the x is in millimeters,
12:27:09 is the distance when it's positive, definitely. Yeah that's right it's a radius from night. Yeah.
12:27:11 Okay, that's what I was gonna ask. Okay. Yeah. Yes, that's why in quadrant chair. So, yeah.
12:27:20 And so far, jumps apart.
12:27:24 So right now the.
12:27:28 The front jam is sitting at 95.
12:27:33 millimeters. The second one is it 99 millimeters.
12:27:37 And then the, the front of the gym is it, is it 100 millimeters.
12:27:46 First, I'm sorry, those are centimeters. Yeah, so 95 centimeters 99 centimeters and then hundred centimeters. Yeah. Yeah. How far to the right to that to go.
12:28:00 How far to the right to that to go. I can I just like plotted on a, can you just change this to a log Why just quickly. I'm just curious to see.
12:28:08 Uh, yeah, how.
12:28:11 Okay, so there's something going out even further. Yeah, okay, because I guess the other thing would be if you'd fit the peak with the Gaussian to see what the central peak was like, because there's the you know the standard deviation and the histogram
12:28:23 but that's you know impacted by a lot and it goes in multiple scattering tail. Yeah, exactly.
12:28:31 Or do you do anything to ensure that the track that you're using in the gentleman says the track that produce the calorie monitor hip.
12:28:44 So it could be mistaken hits that.
12:28:50 That's true. So, I mean, so I should say first, this is electrons and protons but there's not you know it's just those two particles there's no I mean you know there is the.
12:29:00 If there are any kind of secondary electrons that would be in there too, but I mean what I basically do it I say, you know, Is there a hit in a calorie amateur.
12:29:10 And if there is a hidden the calorie bigger than I just, then I say, Okay then. Is there a hit in the two corresponding gems for that kilometer. But you know generating the hit in the color remit of what you propagate a track to the coloring to record
12:29:24 record the hit right and then you do this for the reconstructed track based on the gem hits and compare those two right.
12:29:32 So even, even the generated what you call true undergoes stochastic effects by passing through the materials of the gems. Right.
12:29:42 Yeah. Right.
12:29:45 Well, so, so, so we know the actual position of the killer amateur.
12:29:54 Yeah, but it's not the same event by event, even if you generate in exactly the same track. Yeah that's true right because there's deflection the job.
12:30:01 So that's, yeah.
12:30:02 Yeah, so the multiple scattering is present both in the true, as well as in the Ricoh here.
12:30:11 It's like point one degree of angle uncertainty right.
12:30:16 So it's like two centimeter tumor 200 microns over two centimeters should be something like point one degree,
12:30:26 although it's not quite clear you assume 200 microns intrinsic resolution for the gem hit, which which resolution dominates is the multiple scattering effect.
12:30:36 That makes it dominant. The width, or is it the 200 microns.
12:30:43 So I don't have it here I had plotted it before for another smaller data set.
12:30:48 It looked like it was the, The resolution, yes I plotted it without any resolution smearing and and with the resolution smearing, and it seemed like the resolution smearing was not overly dominant but it seemed to have a bigger impact.
12:31:09 Yeah, so, you know, I conclude sense if you know if the gems actually perform like this.
12:31:21 Then they would be usable to define the acceptance that
12:31:28 on the, on the face of the calorie amateur.
12:31:34 That doesn't mean that they would provide any, you know, study still needs to be done to see if you can trace it back to the target to identify didn't come from the target or digital starter off the scattering chamber roles, or something like that, you
12:32:04 father you project them on certainty, then you get, especially. Sure. Yeah. And the gym or close together now there. Where did you say five centimeters Patrick between. Yeah, that's the distance between the center of the gym, but you also have some with
12:32:09 You also have some with so but yeah roughly five centimeters. Excuse me. This looks all wonderful and I have to apologize myself No I have to go to a council meeting, which is only once a month or usually doesn't interfere with this meeting, but I have
12:32:23 to say sorry I have to leave. Okay.
12:32:32 actuator Michael Yeah we're making it too. Right. Yeah. I'll be back.
12:32:42 Looks like
12:32:35 if Jim's seeking like 95 centimeters away from the, from the origin right from this.
12:32:42 So it still looks like we can reconstruct the position of the target better than one centimeter, based on this kind of stuff, if you're just looking at the, you'll get an uncertainty of Samson like quarter four millimeters over two centimeters.
12:32:57 So you should you should actually it should be very good track projection and to target.
12:33:05 It's not.
12:33:07 I mean, unless multiple scattering of course dominates this processes. Yeah.
12:33:16 No, but I think we'd have to what what was, how did you generate the events that you generate them in a narrow as a musical angle range or is there enough events that would strike the scattering chamber, top and bottom and then possibly re scatter into
12:33:40 the detector.
12:33:44 So I generated.
12:33:49 You know, plus, plus minus four degrees, you know, kind of, you know, off the off of the z axis and then kind of the full, full xy plane or sorry the full z plane.
12:34:04 Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's, that'll go out the window. it's not going to straight, the scattering chambers, you'd have to go beyond plus or minus seven degrees or something I forget where the, where the windows are in the current Monte Carlo but it's at
12:34:24 least seven degrees.
12:34:27 Before you start hitting the, the top or bottom plates so the scattering chamber.
12:34:34 Okay.
12:34:36 I think this is nice. I think it gives in one of the things that we talked about in the proposal is that we define the acceptance as the central three by three crystals of the five by five array.
12:34:57 And we define the acceptance by that criteria, which is 3.6. million stir radians.
12:35:09 And all the rate calculations are based on that, but we say that if the showering is understood that we could, in principle, and if the gems couldn't define the acceptance we could extend it beyond the central three by three, and say that it's in something
12:35:32 like the central four by four.
12:35:35 So halfway into the, the surrounding crystals, and that would change the acceptance from 3.6 to 10 points something I think, so it's almost a factor of three gain in acceptance and rate, which is a big step.
12:36:04 So, yeah,
12:36:08 I think it's useful. Now, provided you know the gems work
12:36:15 and aren't swamped by the background.
12:36:18 Oh and one last question just to be the antic, you've still got the centimeter of aluminum in front of the gems right.
12:36:27 Yeah, yeah. Okay, good.
12:36:31 Yeah, you need that to cut down the molar Bob or rate on the gems, so.
12:36:41 Okay.
12:36:41 Anything else. Any other questions for Patrick.
12:36:47 Oh, Mark, you hear you exist.
12:36:51 I haven't seen you for a while.
12:36:53 Yeah, sorry.
12:36:57 No problem.
12:36:58 I understand you're giving a seminar next week.
12:37:02 Yeah haven't as a little late today so I was putting the finishing touches on that and I'll check a time, so.
12:37:09 Okay, good.
12:37:11 Um, okay so Does anyone else have anything they would like to raise or report on today.
12:37:27 No. Okay, so then I would say that we end the meeting, I'll be in touch with the theoreticians, like I said, I will send out the letter to the daisy, the letters to the daisy PRC and see how things go.
12:37:50 And otherwise, we meet again. Oh I know I've got one thing to more thing I wanted to raise two things actually
12:38:00 the APS meeting a number of us are giving talks at the APS.
12:38:08 And I think it's useful to have a presentation before, just with amongst ourselves,
12:38:20 to see if you know everyone agrees with what people are saying about two packs.
12:38:29 So I would suggest, sorry, let me back up a little, the APS has requested that I that you can upload your slides, by the seventh of April, which is, you know, 10 days before the APS meeting starts, though it's only six days before the
12:38:56 group on hadron at physics meets, and I think some of us are giving talks in both APS, and in the Atlantic physics group meeting so in order to satisfy all those requirements, I would suggest that we have rehearsals on the fifth of April during the
12:39:27 Monte Carlo meeting at 12 o'clock on April fifth Monday April the fifth, if that's acceptable to everyone.
12:39:41 Okay I don't hear any objection. So, I think.
12:39:47 Ethan Are you talking about TX Are you you're I'm doing TPX at the APS you're going ok so Ethan, and again is doing TX at GHPG I need to.
12:40:02 I'm also. I'm also doing kickbacks at APS about target. Yeah, you're doing the target, I'm doing the general one, and you're going to do a general one added that gap.
12:40:13 Yep. Yeah.
12:40:22 I'm doing cut APS the analysis of the is being placed on you right, I forgot about that. That's great. Okay, so can we all do that on Monday April 5 at 12 o'clock.
12:40:38 Just to rehearse it.
12:40:41 Okay, sounds good. Yeah, we're tree.