12:58:27 Hi guys.
12:58:29 Hi.
12:58:31 Hello.
12:58:33 Hi, Richard. Hi.
12:59:14 I just came from an edge a meeting and Cristiano Fanelli showed some AI calculation of the resolution with the edge a field which was as good as the.
12:59:35 The best we've seen from the 3.5 Tesla fail. So, When he when he fell off the chairs.
12:59:43 That's good to hear.
12:59:45 Well, I mean, it's preliminary let's see if it last.
12:59:50 If it's true.
12:59:53 been at the software Town Hall.
12:59:56 No, it wasn't Miss.
13:00:06 Well town halls are supposed to be messy or they made a democracy or something.
13:00:13 Sausage making an action.
13:01:06 Morning Good day everyone. How you guys doing good yeah and
13:01:13 Good to see you.
13:01:27 See, Bob is here as well. Yeah, we were, we were stuck in a Canadian funding agency long range plan, discussion last week and we couldn't join this week, we're both here. Morning. Sounds important like an important.
13:01:30 Yeah, we were discussing high priority recommendation and it felt like we should really be there.
13:01:38 There's some meetings, you don't want to miss. Yes.
13:02:03 Hello everyone.
13:01:57 Nice to see again.
13:02:01 Yeah, This is.
13:02:03 Well, I guess at least I'm not the only one who is trying to do both dark light, and he I see and.
13:02:11 Yeah, you better do something other than the ice if you do for the next 10 years.
13:02:18 It's a great different timelines. Yeah, exactly.
13:02:32 are things in Canada, with respect to code that are improving.
13:02:38 Very, very good I would say read this morning that Canada is no on track to be one of the highest rate of vaccination or first child vaccinated vaccine.
13:02:51 You, a, you know, like, of the larger scale of countries I think it's on the UK that is an Israel, Israel.
13:03:02 I think we're probably going to surpass the UK either today or tomorrow.
13:03:08 First vaccination, Manitoba isn't as doing us great, or I see us are completely full and they're, they're having to ship ICU patients out of province.
13:03:21 So, so this is not not so great here. Yeah.
13:03:26 You know why is there is there's no uptake on vaccines or it's just, you're still in the in the in the third wave, yeah we're, I mean, there's uptake on vaccines, but it's still, it's still people who who've gotten sick before they got the vaccine and
13:03:47 I think there's some.
13:03:47 They don't want to, they don't want to say it in those words, but there's there's some religious communities in Manitoba, similar to like the Amish in in Pennsylvania or in Ohio.
13:04:09 And they're not as receptive in in accepting the vaccine and they also have more communal religious festivals and so I think part of it. The reason has been that
13:04:24 it seems Canada has now 22 million is at least one those 2.3 or service to those.
13:04:39 2.3 or service to those. That's great. That's good to hear.
13:04:43 Yeah.
13:04:43 Yeah, we're here in Massachusetts like all requirements were lifted at the weekend so we just had a holiday weekend Memorial Day, so my wife and I were in Cape Cod so actually add, we add in a restaurant indoors for the first time and I don't know 16
13:05:01 months or something.
13:05:07 We're, we're pretty weird.
13:05:09 Where were you on the cape Falmouth. Okay, yeah.
13:05:13 Yeah wife's parents will don't not and follow up but yeah, you just got an email from Stony Brook that they expect all stuff to be two days in since starting July something and fully in August.
13:05:29 And it's just feel strange just imagination that you go back every day difference.
13:05:39 Yeah, just when I got my VM he creates all set up in my basement here.
13:05:47 You can run, you can run your kitchen with them, I guess.
13:05:52 Yeah, sure.
13:05:59 So Doug how many, how many were you expecting here today Do you know 13 So, in principle, we're still waiting for two people but I would go ahead and start.
13:06:16 I don't see Thomas yet. And who else would I be expecting from from triumph. Thomas, and all of our couldn't make it because of previous commitments. So, This is all we're going to get from triumph today.
13:06:33 Okay.
13:06:38 Yeah.
13:06:39 Grace is not here.
13:06:42 Yeah, Thank you for being a thing. Yeah, Ross.
13:06:49 Yeah, Ross is messy and.
13:06:53 Okay.
13:06:55 Well, I would, I would go ahead and start. Yeah.
13:07:00 So, yeah, we had a meeting and pretty good meeting last week but maybe we, we could put up the first slide that we had last week to just go over things, I don't know, I can I can you have it, Richard.
13:07:21 Yeah, I do. Okay.
13:07:21 Does every buddy see this slide dark light that area and moving forward. Yeah.
13:07:27 So, so we kind of talked to this last week we have more discussion on some things than others but.
13:07:36 So I think we do need to understand, you know, we know I think we certain fraction of the collaborating institutions it's clear, but particularly the new Canadian groups.
13:07:48 I mean, there have been expressions of interest and commitments, but we probably need to
13:07:58 kind of make a table I guess where we put all of that zombie, you know, one of the steps, coming up is to approach funding agencies and I think before we want to do that we kind of want to have our story straight.
13:08:11 So, kind of, so I don't know voter you weren't there last week, did you have any, any as you're from a Canadian group did you have any comment you wanted to make.
13:08:22 Well I mean I assumed that that that the timeline is is clear right i think i sent that to dog, as well, that so so in the Canadian environment we, we'd want to submit a letter of intent, I assume, to answer this August.
13:08:43 August 1 I guess or whenever the first working day isn't. Yeah.
13:08:58 And and so that will be the time to make sure that we have all of the collaborators rounded up to be listed on there.
13:09:06 proposal who's who's been identified so that would be your.
13:09:16 I assume this is the steps that you're, you're working under right I wasn't there and I didn't have to admit, Thank you for making the recording but I didn't watch.
13:09:21 I think we probably need to have a separate meeting with the Canadian people that have expressed interest.
13:09:32 Like, I was under the impression that Mike has enough was was
13:09:37 trying, you know, to become the PR but obviously there there was not clearly spelled out and I think we need to spell it out and see if people are comfortable with that or if somebody else wants to step up.
13:09:58 I think it was a handful of people that we had from from from Manitoba and from UBC, and from St Mary's. So,
13:10:04 could I maybe just organize something for like next week or the following week, I think, yeah, I think that'd be good. Yeah, yeah, maybe I'll do just something like, that's a internal to to Canada and just bring those people together and see how we move
13:10:13 forward.
13:10:16 There's also the boundary conditions that I think you can only be Fei on one.
13:10:21 One proposal a year so so I know that rules out a whole bunch of us in Manitoba or do or renewal for some projects this year so.
13:10:31 Exactly, yeah, I guess retool has one as well in St Mary's. So I was under the impression that that Mike ass and I wanted to do that but obviously we need to clarify that.
13:10:44 Yeah.
13:10:45 Yeah. Mike was not available at one o'clock, but he should be available at 130. If the guests get started this class and die.
13:11:00 Yeah. Now that sounds great. I mean, so like I mean just repeating I think you already all know this that you know the US groups, the MIT is responsible for the design and construction of the spectrometer system, the Magnetic Spectrometer system and the
13:11:17 vacuum system and also the target and Hampton is responsible for producing the gem trackers, and on Stony Brook for the electronics.
13:11:32 Now, you know, so just kind of stuffing, a little bit I did send the letter the official letter you sent us to our daily program manager I have not heard a reply, that's not unusual.
13:11:44 And also, you know, Doug and I have have our funding renewal this this cycle and so that's been submitted so we did not request these funds, the hardware funds but we request funding for students and postdocs,
13:12:01 so he may be you know he he may be just waiting or something I don't know, but I'll definitely pull some again.
13:12:10 But, and you know we'll see what we can get you know it's, but that's that's where we're starting from, you know, I sometimes think you know funding ages as we say well we can give you only so much money and then we're going to have to reorganize or something
13:12:30 but for now I think that's that's. And then the next one was determining the resources required a carrier. So, you know, I think that's, again, I think the funds for the US tagged components was in the proposal.
13:12:45 I think in addition Stoney broke would require would request funding for
13:12:52 student postdocs. That's right, yeah and then Yon and I have discussed the possibility that we take the Stony Brook and MIT would would would split a postdoc, that would be working on the experiment.
13:13:08 I don't think we can get the post office, alone through but share post opportunity to incidents I think that, so yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think, I think that's a good way to do it.
13:13:19 So, so anyway, yeah so so this all sounds reasonable your deadline August one doesn't sound, certainly not a problem.
13:13:28 Um, so they're kind of the first three items and then you know, more, more interesting more and more physics is the second two. So, we discussed last week.
13:13:45 These are shows, we want to, we basically want to go back and revisit the design of the experiment we did a, you know, a significant amount of work for the proposal, but it wasn't finished.
13:13:57 So just going through these here magnet design earnings or anything, anything no there on that.
13:14:04 You're muted, Ernie. I did reach out but I didn't hear anything back from somebody about helping me design a magnet but, yeah.
13:14:14 So I'm working on that. Yeah, great. I have the rest of the information so right.
13:14:19 Okay. And, I mean, we do have Yon kind of basically did all of this before the proposal.
13:14:31 And we have. We're welcome we welcome Marianne more is an MIT graduate student.
13:14:40 And then, Marianne and yon You, you, did you have a chance to talk, be met and I think Marianne has a starting point, actually.
13:14:46 We met and I think Marianne has a starting point, actually. The problem you sent me was that resolve.
13:14:51 Yeah yeah so so I'm trying now to, to keep going but that was resolved. Thank you. Okay, great. Excellent.
13:14:59 Yeah, so they would. I mean, she's a real theorist so we will, will have her benefit of her expertise to calculate the backgrounds,
13:15:11 which go in, you know, as you know to to the optimization experiment.
13:15:16 So the last item was something we talked quite a bit about last week.
13:15:22 So, and I think when we Jaan Ross and I met with yen's Oliver and Thomas.
13:15:32 We discussed this a little bit too but it turns out that we have a target for oil and focusing spectrometer, a kind of a lower energy version of what we want for our for our traffic experiment.
13:15:48 Basically we did we built all of this for next round at MIT at three MeV to measure monitor scattering.
13:15:56 And so I think we want to, we want to consider the idea to put site to test experiment on the floor.
13:16:09 f8 in Vancouver, you know, the end of the year maybe early next year or something like that I mean just just roughly, roughly, we would have to the equipment.
13:16:19 So is there anything new on bringing the equipment back to base from from campus.
13:16:28 Know I reached out the chat and got no response. Yeah.
13:16:34 So, I don't even know who else can get me into that though.
13:16:39 He might have retired for all I know you know if if it.
13:16:46 Yeah, exactly, we're gonna need a more central we got the facilities and see but you know we realistically we need somebody to tell us everything to say for everything.
13:16:57 Should we can't let Eric was the other person I knew work there I wonder if he know, Eric done ago when he might.
13:17:04 Yeah, I can ask him. Yeah, why don't you pulse him, or if he doesn't know at least who the right people. Yeah.
13:17:14 Okay. Okay. Good job. Thanks. That's nw 10 right.
13:17:19 That sounds right but, you know, I look i mean i i pass it, you know it's on mass out there, I don't know I know exactly, yeah.
13:17:33 I think that's right. And I mean we have photographs, so I don't know if you're interested in.
13:17:40 Yet yen's did you want to
13:17:44 see photographs of this setup.
13:17:47 Definitely. I think there's always, there's always useful Do you get it you get a sense for scale. Absolutely, yeah. If you, I mean, I don't know how difficult is to pick them up but it would be great to see them yeah all right let's let me not try do
13:18:01 do it in real time but we'll send you some, some photos that we have, there's a thesis that was written on it by our students so
13:18:11 would you also have a solid works model of the setup.
13:18:16 Yes.
13:18:17 Yeah, Bernie has that Jim's to be able to dig it out, actually, if you could send that to us that would be really helpful.
13:18:32 Yeah Jim's to be able to dig it out, actually, if you could send that to us that would be really helpful. What's the dog I guess I guess I just send stuff to you when you post it on in the goal is that the way we distribute things probably principle you
13:18:40 you could post it yourself, but I'm happy to do it. No. Okay, yeah, I'll be the most familiar. Yeah, okay, I'll do that. Well, after the meeting. Yeah, Yeah.
13:18:51 Sorry, I think, I don't know anybody, Richard I have I have a picture I can throw up. Yeah, I did that yeah if you haven't quickly yet please let me stop sharing.
13:19:06 Now
13:19:06 you guys see that.
13:19:07 Yeah.
13:19:08 So there's the smaller magnet is the one on the cream color magnet goes very high field has a small bore and the other one's got a lower field, but they they pivoted on a post.
13:19:24 Let me see if I can add those are the magnets available but we actually built an experiment around the blue one, where were we actually took data with it.
13:19:33 But yeah, but you can see the rail underneath the blue eye or Braille. So actually, you can rotate that yep magnet base.
13:19:42 And there was a scattering chamber, there was a target will be up and down. This is before we brought it down there.
13:19:49 And, yeah, the target ladder, I think we use carbon wasn't it don't remember it monitor scattering from the electrons in carbon is what we, what we measured.
13:19:59 So I think it was a carbon foil.
13:20:01 But you could put any files you want on it.
13:20:05 Okay.
13:20:14 Looks like Mike has joined.
13:20:16 Yep. Hey Mike welcome.
13:20:21 There was a little discussion earlier about Canadian funding,
13:20:28 my notes a letter of intent to answer about August one, and there needs to be a Canadian pi identified anything. Right.
13:20:39 My God.
13:20:50 I had suggested that I can organize maybe a little meeting with the people from Canada that have expressed interest i think it's it's yourself, people from drawing people from the two institutions in Manitoba, and St Mary's mobile just stay together and
13:20:58 discuss it, is that okay for you. Sure, that's good idea. I think we talked about this back in March, a little guess but
13:21:08 as to whether or not we wanted to have funding for an accelerator person student, as well as, as for the physics, students analyzing data, and building simulators, etc.
13:21:32 I'll set something up for next week or the following week so we're in good shape to put the letter of intent forward and I guess it is to identify with the API, mostly with doesn't have another proposal that it's going in because you can only put one
13:21:44 etc etc. Right. Oh, there's this trap as well. I Jeff. Hello, Jeff. Yeah I caught everything you said yes thanks. Okay. Okay.
13:21:55 Hi, Mike.
13:21:56 how are things in your hot province today.
13:21:58 Yeah, it's hot, but it's also it's also quite hot too, and Copa de. Yeah.
13:22:10 Know just like a normal day in Virginia here.
13:22:16 No, it's actually not because well as I remember when I was growing up in Winnipeg the humidity is usually not very high. It's more like the California heats would dry, as opposed to the east coast heat, and
13:22:32 I spent a summer in Tokyo, and and that that humidity like like Georgia.
13:22:38 Yeah.
13:22:41 I'm hearing mini pack and heat in the same sentence feels wrong.
13:22:47 Oh, it's hot, it goes up to about 14 Celsius Jaan Oh, yeah. It also goes to minus 40 occasionally in the winter. Right.
13:22:58 Although not not so much as as it did when I was there as a child.
13:23:05 But they did have a very cold winter What about three four years ago when the pipes froze morning to my brother that you had many days where it was below minus 20.
13:23:14 That's a high.
13:23:19 Yeah.
13:23:19 Yeah. Okay, um, do we have any other physics items that we need to discuss today I had put a question out, which I saw your reply, about the size of the simulators I started looking at and thinking about what we would want to build.
13:23:34 And so I wasn't sure if about the sizes not that we have to fix them now because we don't have any money, but we do need to start thinking about the length of the simulators and how many we can afford to instrument.
13:23:48 Yeah, and how it can be, I thought, we need this full time resolution I think part of that is that the simulators use the news actually very thin and very narrow too.
13:24:01 So I'm not sure if you make them a revised, then suddenly the time was was worse.
13:24:06 Yeah. Some someone, some thought.
13:24:11 Are you thinking of Central 18 strips like we use done molar or not, s thin. So, so, Muse has I think two millimeter thick strips, which are six or 12 millimeter wide, even drop me in a row.
13:24:32 I think they were four eight.
13:24:36 Like that. Yeah.
13:24:36 And, and double sided the readout. And besides, he ends and the psyche amplify I think designed by Tel Aviv.
13:24:46 Yeah, yeah, I read, I got the paper, it's published this year I think 2021, and I got the link from Michael Cole, and looked it up and read it, it's a very nice job that they did the medical system so we could call it the constant fraction discriminate
13:25:07 as well and then some, some hundred Pico second resolution that contained.
13:25:25 And I think they were four millimeters wide, or eight millimeters wide, and 150, or 150 long, But they also tested longer and wider and get started. That's not what we ended up using you don't need that much space.
13:25:34 And so I think there is some play but I don't know if you could make them, let's say three centimeters might I that might not work, but maybe we can push it to one or two centimeters or something about losing too much.
13:25:48 Well the, but you're, you're going to use them only for the trigger the momentum is actually going to be computed using the, the gym chambers right yeah but for me it's a good timing.
13:26:00 Yes. Right.
13:26:08 Yeah, I think that's for the actual experiment john if we are investigating a possibility of a test.
13:26:18 sooner just the measure properties of the beam with a target in the backgrounds, maybe a simpler setup could be done faster.
13:26:31 We, we have a central later graveyard at trials for ones that have been produced, and we can look and see we don't usually have things that are as long and as narrow as what we're talking about here, and they're probably typically an eighth of an inch
13:26:48 thick which is three millimeters rather than two, which doesn't make much difference except in background neutrons.
13:26:55 But we could perhaps make a couple of small ones, it depends whether we wanted to cover a large area of the focal plane at once, or just measure backgrounds.
13:27:07 I think I think for the test experiments. If it's early Michael would only have the 10 by 10 times anyway right now. I the other ones I spoken for at least until mid next year so so for that you need a 10 by 10 incentive later pedal, have some thickness
13:27:24 to pick off.
13:27:26 But that's what the trivial that yeah that would be easier to find or to make.
13:27:32 I'm sure that you you still have some stuff in your lab Actually, she could use yeah actually I've been trading my lab, and I found 310 by 10.
13:27:45 centimeter, 10 by 10 by one centimeter sent away simulators, they don't have I don't have them wrapped, and I don't have.
13:27:57 Well I have for remote fighters I could attach a PMT to it. Yeah, PMT or, I have some Sapiens yeah we I also found a bunch of IPOs. Oh, and we replicate the, the amplifier.
13:28:12 I mean that's not so hot, and if you can get that I see so right now.
13:28:17 That's a problem. But, does anybody own, I mean these are commercial amplifiers I think produced in Germany, look to me like there was a company that made them to the telomere design.
13:28:29 Am I correct, but I'm not a no I thought I'm not sure on that I thought the amplifiers were built at the psi workshop.
13:28:38 Yeah, and that's where they were both, but the CFD they saw messy text, they are from Germany.
13:28:44 Okay, that's what it was.
13:28:47 But I think, I mean, for that you probably don't need even CFD is just something to trigger off. Right. And I think we have enough CFDs in some wreck certainly right.
13:28:58 And, Yes Are you still here.
13:29:02 Yes, I am.
13:29:07 In Thailand, had a equipment pool.
13:29:18 And I
13:29:21 like Mike's connections fading. Yeah, okay. You're breaking up like if the keys frozen right now. Yeah,
13:29:31 I guess he was.
13:29:40 Oh, here he is. Yeah.
13:29:35 You're beautiful You're muted.
13:29:37 I'm having trouble with my internet this morning I don't know what's wrong, it's dropped off several times during my lecture.
13:29:50 Have you you froze equipment cool. Yeah, is there. Would it be possible to obtain CFDs for a short test experiment from the equipment pool Do we still have anything left in the pool.
13:30:00 I don't know, top of my head, if we haven't we can certainly, I mean defined as it was
13:30:09 before the reading from.
13:30:16 Who's in charge of the pool now grant Schaeffer used to do this in the old days. Yes. So I guess technically it's the actress, that was Frankie.
13:30:26 Okay.
13:30:34 But if we make a little test setup, is it possible to send it to try it and put it into a beam.
13:30:52 Totally.
13:30:44 No problem at all. I were basically just doing something like that with the equipment from the University of Chicago that we're shipping over to try and market our quarter is the guy who is handling, bringing equipment mostly from the states to Canada,
13:31:03 you know, there's this
13:31:06 tension and stuff like that you need to fill out but it's far So, what's his timescale yen's for for running the beam in Ariel for a test experiment, could we do something in September.
13:31:22 Well, would know better than I do.
13:31:28 Yeah, Mike so we.
13:31:31 This year our primary focuses is on establishing reliable operation at 10 kilowatt level. So we would have to look at our schedule and how to know what what is involved in the test, in terms of moving equipment in.
13:31:48 Certainly it's not, it's not out of the question I think it's just up for discussion. So, be good to know that you froze bob i don't know whether it's like system or yours.
13:31:58 Let me stop my video.
13:32:01 Though you sounded fine to me. Oh.
13:32:04 So I think it's just to, you know, knowing the details about what we want to install and how big it is and I think we can fit it in, in terms of our timeline.
13:32:14 It's just, you know, pre planning leads to success, I think. Now we can start the discussion.
13:32:28 Does that answer your question, Mike.
13:32:32 Mike's frozen again. Okay.
13:32:34 Yeah, that sounds reasonable, I mean we have work to do we need to kind of flush this out,
13:32:41 send you drawings of what we're talking about. I mean last week we talked about maybe having a target installed first as a first phase just to see how how the beam interacts with the target.
13:32:54 And then maybe later I have spectrometers in detectors.
13:33:00 I think, I think that all could be worked in, you know,
13:33:06 sorry I, I dropped out again, Bob, I didn't hear, whether or not doing this test before September in September would be possible maybe just a short answer then I can look at the recording.
13:33:20 And the short answer is, I would have to look at the details about how much equipment we're talking about.
13:33:27 We have an ongoing program at in the Atlantic this year but I think, given what I'm hearing is the scale of this we could probably fit something in, I see also that Toma has joined the call.
13:33:41 Yes Sorry I was double booked so I'm trying to try to sue them, though, I left the other meeting halfway and I'm coming in this one halfway apologize.
13:33:50 Yeah, yeah. So, you need something important apparently.
13:33:55 So you were talking about doing a test. Next year being tests with equipment in the home. This year before September, or hold on hold on hold on, we are generally talking considering the possibility of using existing equipment we have a target ladder
13:34:13 in a vacuum chamber and we have a focusing spectrometer.
13:34:16 We have some fraction of the detectors we certainly need others. And we're recalculating background so you know I think more realistically maybe the end of the year, early next year myself, I don't know you know to put all this together figure out what
13:34:32 we would do but that's been the general discussion I think right, one of the boundary conditions that we can think about is that we do have a mini shut down in the neck.
13:34:46 That is starting at the end of September.
13:34:48 And we are installing other equipment in that period, roughly, most of October.
13:34:56 So if we had something from dark light, that would be worthwhile to install I think that would be the period we should target.
13:35:19 Absolutely, yes, it says sounds reasonable. Now this this is something that he I don't know how much of background measurements you can do with installing on you, something very, you know, partial, it's just detectors in the holding.
13:35:22 Nothing really, you know, in the beam line into setting the female or wrong.
13:35:34 Yeah, we, we could put a target or a ladder of targets, say, one micron tantalum 10 microns standalone high density polyethylene and then a empty target your background with a central later it doesn't have to be the spectrometer.
13:35:58 Yeah.
13:35:58 But we also have a spectrometer right you can literally just chop it up there. Yeah but, well, the power supply and, yeah, I think we can ship anything quickly but we need to figure out what we want to do so I mean, I think, I think the target could be
13:36:12 shipped with. So, after this window of October when would the next window be, or do you maybe you don't know yet but you have any destination. Yeah. So if it's a major shut down, like you know, if it takes more than, than a week points, you know if it's
13:36:31 just a few days, we have a regular maintenance day so we can sneak it in, you know, we know that I think if we're putting that a spectrometer system and that's so easy to we were talking about several weeks, then, then we, we, we, at the moment, the plan
13:36:47 is to have the next shut down, starting some time in 2022, March or April.
13:36:57 Okay.
13:36:58 I'm not convinced that it would take that long, but I think if you could put that in. No, I'm not arguing with you but I think.
13:37:06 Let's just get the, the openings and plan accordingly. But, yeah. Okay,
13:37:13 Good.
13:37:14 Yeah, just point out Rachel is joined conversations, oh yeah I'm sorry I had a conflict so joining late. apologies. Yeah, no problem.
13:37:27 I think yen's wants to organize a meeting of the Canadians to discuss how to proceed from your side.
13:37:39 Graduate Russian output already put something together for next week or the following week in Toronto for the Canadians, and I would suggest you do a doodle poll.
13:37:50 Yes.
13:37:54 I think to get the targeting what we got to communicate, stuff like how, what's the bean pie dimensions how much space is possible for us. How high, what's the beam height and stuff like this, like when we can see how well it fits already in what needs
13:38:13 to be changed to make it fit.
13:38:15 It's easy. Yeah. I think the target should be straightforward. I think the spectrum are we have some homework to do because we need to determine the maximum field, and
13:38:40 spectrometer
13:38:34 spectrometers fatty signed to the melon measurement at, love, right from the energy. So, so suddenly this would be a straightforward to just to do.
13:38:45 Right, so at least that that is manager and they know they cover.
13:38:50 Yeah, but is that interesting, you know, in terms of measuring backgrounds, for where they experiment at some fraction of the of the ready to background, that's probably the little bit lower than that but the real.
13:39:03 But he did this right, we predict the other one better.
13:39:06 Right, so it's a good guy I think he's gonna find out what the maximum.
13:39:11 And we will, you know, I think we before we start making plans of shipping things you need to understand, you know what is kind of optimal will got what is our goal.
13:39:22 You know, that's all. I mean,
13:39:28 sorry there were two people talk Oh, sorry, I can just do that very quickly. It's very straightforward. Yeah, no, I think that's right.
13:39:35 I think the biggest issue is getting the gems mounted on top.
13:39:39 Well, Michael said, I thought that you could. Well, you said it earlier I think we have to be, we have to consult with him about all of that.
13:39:48 That's just me it's some construction so I know he has the 10, but it needs some construction to just like physically mount them at the end of the spectrometer, I that's not something.
13:40:02 YouTube is legal. So from from from the main perspective, concerns I think I can see three concerns. If you know, to two of them are rated you mentioned protection so the first one is that, you know, there's going to be scattering of the beam through
13:40:21 the career target. And I would like to. Haven't you know an idea of, you know what's going to happen to the Wii mean Am I going to be able to transport.
13:40:38 These scattered particle all the way to the dump without losing them in a way because the you know there's some distance in some vendors between the your target in the dumps so that's one question the second question is, how, how, you know, went on the
13:40:47 risk to that we actually blow up the target and then recreate dust or particulates inside the backend system which would screw up or Kennedy.
13:40:55 And the third one that I can think of, like, that is, is you've been going to install the spectrometer how much of the 1950s being to meet and affect the trajectory of the, of the team.
13:41:09 Because, again, I have to be able to transport that being downstream so if there is some steering error introduced by DKHP from the day but I have to be able to compensate for that.
13:41:17 So those are three things that I need to clear up with you at some point maybe specific technical meeting, or a.
13:41:25 Yeah, well, I think we can we can determine me give you answers to each of these
13:41:33 mean in the end, presumably would start with a low intensity and where, where we would be sure that there wouldn't be any, we would damage anything or nothing would melt to blow up, I mean is, yeah, that's where we also want to make sure we insert something
13:41:47 something that we can scale up to the level of power you that you need, otherwise. Yeah, I understand, but
13:41:56 yeah, that's good.
13:41:59 work on those.
13:42:05 Well, I think the information on the shutdowns like over the next year is good. I think that kind of frames are thinking.
13:42:21 But it sounds like there's a lot of appetite to get a test experiment then,
13:42:32 I agree.
13:42:48 I had just something else we brought up from time to time, just so we don't forget it, which was the thought that we would at some point have a scientific workshop, presumably and trying on looking at broader opportunities might want to keep that in mind.
13:43:11 Yeah, I don't know what the right time for that is, I guess, in terms of covert we are thinking and hoping the province will be back to normal. In the fall like after, after September, but I think it turns out, I don't know if that is the right time.
13:43:44 Yeah, something nice to celebrate and it makes it real. Exactly, that's kind of what I was thinking maybe have something something real yeah so. Yeah.
13:43:48 Yep. No, I think it would be fantastic. Absolutely.
13:43:53 Well maybe in the fall we start to, you know, we, it's good to prepare these things and have a sign, you know, organizing committee and I'm sure we reach out privately to the community.
13:44:12 So in terms of a weekly meeting is 130 a better time than one or, it seemed like.
13:44:20 Not according to the doodle poll, but, you know, and this is assuming Thursday's or the, the best day.
13:44:29 You know we didn't explore doing it on other days.
13:44:36 I mean we got to converge on something. I think we're close to convergence here what I can say monday and friday don't work for me. So, must be Tuesday to Thursday, anyway.
13:44:52 Now, one o'clock, was the best time for most people.
13:44:59 It. Unfortunately for Mike.
13:45:01 He's only available at 130. According to his answer and Ricardo was not able to come for either of those, but everyone else was good for that of the respondents.
13:45:20 Look at
13:45:20 you know we can discuss other days if.
13:45:31 Well, I mean, as I said I think we have a pretty good core I'm here today. So, yeah.
13:45:38 So, I mean I terminated my lecture today, a few minutes early so I was able to log in once I found the right. Zoom link.
13:45:47 I tried Richard zoom link first and didn't get in, and then I'm having internet problems that you've seen.
13:45:53 So I've been in and out but.
13:45:56 So, I have three more weeks of classes and then I'm free for the summer so I won't be a problem for 10 o'clock, Vancouver time one o'clock your time. Eastern time.
13:46:08 After the last week of June.
13:46:11 I don't know about Rita.
13:46:14 So I think it really depends on the specific time of the year, or the month.
13:46:24 I would say that probably it's best to plan your meetings around the availability of people who are absolutely critical to be there. And then the others can fit in.
13:46:37 Agreed, try to fit in that that would be probably the best way.
13:46:41 And I'm sure it's going to change. perhaps when you get to September and again in January when people's teaching loads change.
13:47:02 No, that's great. Yeah, I mean, I don't think we're not going to make any huge decisions week by week. But, and I think it's good to have our new collaborators be part of this, I just really want that to happen.
13:47:19 And there's plenty to do as you, as you've gathered I think there's just.
13:47:23 I think we have some real clear goals funding agency. The summer we have this test experiment, you know, to shoot for these two shutdowns, see what we can do.
13:47:38 I'm hoping I mean, you know, I'm hoping that that we can base, we mean, I mean I should just speak for like the, but I think we can more or less do this out of our present funding, we're not we're not waiting for new money to do the test if it's just
13:47:55 using repurposing equipment we have at least from the target and spectrometer, we may need some detectors electronics.
13:48:13 So I mean that would be great if we could actually get a test experiment going say by spring of next year, but while we kind of wait for the funding to build a full experiment.
13:48:18 So to get an experiment going. We have a process at trial that we sort of have to go through. So the you know the first the first step is going to have a, we're going to have to have a design review.
13:48:30 And then we're going to have to have some, you know, some, some great reviews, and then we can start implementing things in Ruby.
13:48:41 So, but the most important is is this design review we have to have someone who can, you know, can present a design and answer different questions to do you know to do with the impact on didn't actually doing with the, you know how useful this setup would
13:49:08 your background and things like that so that that that that thing is the first step is we need this presentation this formal design review. And the ok so the issue is I won't have the manpower or the availability to drive that myself before about September,
13:49:17 so if you want to start this process earlier, and have to look at one of you to try this to put together these these I can contribute but they cannot be the driver on to September.
13:49:29 But Thomas just to, you know, give some perspective, the approach is a is a great approach. So, we're a little test you need a little review for a big experiment you need a big review.
13:49:44 Yeah.
13:49:47 Sorry about that. Yes, I agree, but it's still, you know, any questions needs to be answered. It doesn't have to be a huge amount of work with each team needs someone with the energy and the drive to, to put those things together and come up with a consistent
13:50:03 design combined design reviews slash safety review.
13:50:09 like that. Yeah, I think that's very reasonable.
13:50:11 I mean what I would propose I guess is that we produce a. I mean you can report of the test experiment that we that we write up, what we want to do, what is we want it.
13:50:25 And what we want to do isn't have to be exhaustive but I think that forces us all to, to be clear about what we're doing. And I kind of like that.
13:50:36 Anyway, I mean I was thinking more of the main the main experiment which I think we want to do as well but if we really want to push the test experiment to get it into one of your shutdowns we probably should focus on that.
13:50:55 I mean, we will learn a lot of me if we, if we design. I mean if we calculate backgrounds and from the top, I mean all the things with respect to being going like your three concerns that you identified which are all very reasonable I mean we have to
13:51:10 calculate those for either setup. So I think there are a lot of things that overlap in designing in motivating the test experiment. So, I mean if we had.
13:51:23 If we had a report by let's say late August or something like that on TV or for the for the test experiment does that. Does that sound reasonable. Absolutely.
13:51:35 I think it's such as an evil, I think I would what would be ideal for for triumph would be that early, we start something even earlier than that so that around August we even have, you know, the mandala drawings of the patches you want to install.
13:51:53 Okay, and that you know for for configuration controlling and things like that we suffered in the past from having collaborations, it, we've got our writers receiving paths without having the drawings and having lots of issues downstream so having it
13:52:07 I suspect the drinks could be produced by the designer he's a trial, or in collaboration in some way but would be nice to have a review of the concept in with some drawing at least drafted so that we know what we can install there.
13:52:23 And also if you need to have some you know if he if we bring in, Dave polio spectrometer and you want it to be controlled with our control system we need to inform our control group to give them a heads up so that things that really say we need to stop
13:52:38 the discussion with a bunch of Service Group at a trial, so that we get drawings we get controls we get all those things prepared for when you're going to need it, and those things take time so we'd be better start that process now and have a nice stolen
13:52:53 review at some point maybe at the end of summer.
13:52:58 And in I think everything would fall back into place and naturally, if we do that if we start that now.
13:53:02 Thomas Are you thinking that there's no access to the hall once, things are installed and the beam comes on or is it possible that we. So with that means we need some control of the magnet of the spectrometer.
13:53:18 From the control from our local control room from accounting room. That is correct, yes, or do you want, cuz I'm not so sure that the, you need to have your control room control the spectrometer I would think that would be up to the experimenters to control
13:53:34 the spectrometer itself to do the options need to be discussing see what's the easiest, that is essentially what it comes down to, but it's going to come down to, you know, bringing down cables through cable the trays, which are already overcrowded so
13:53:50 we're going to have to find solutions and and and data you know this lot of tiny details were David's life, I remember.
13:54:13 And yes, the electoral Hall is locked and cannot be accessed when we run bi first question, I agree with everything Tama is saying and also this idea that Richard had of producing a document would be good for the collaboration, just to define the goals
13:54:22 of this first test.
13:54:25 And then also the boundary conditions on on operation, because this is something we have to consider within the team at time.
13:54:34 So, the questions that Mike is asking about the access to the spectrometer all of these things, these are all good questions but it has to come out of some kind of a plan review.
13:54:46 You know, I think the question that Mike head about, you know, what controls lie with the experimenter the controls me live with the experimenter but I think what Tomas is trying to bring up is that, somehow, possibly needs to be integrated in the epics.
13:55:02 So in the epics, and that takes effort that takes a lot of effort and time.
13:55:09 Now, if it is decided that this will completely not be integrated into time fabrics and will be totally some manual or other standalone, that's a different discussion and whether or not that can happen is possibly a part of a broader safety review discussion,
13:55:27 because some signals may be need to be provided with the Triumph epics to ensure that that these accidents happen and the electron beam has to be stopped.
13:55:39 Automatically there should be some drivers stopping the electron beam and the beam is not deflected somewhere and burning a hole somewhere else.
13:55:49 Secondly, that you put it very clearly.
13:55:52 Do you have that already Thomas PR for the beam. I mean, you mean meshing production things that would protection and and control of your disciples and so many magnets and quadruples for sharing that presumably you already have yeah yes that is a system
13:56:09 which is actually the most important part you know the, it's easy to put this beam within it, it's hard to not read the whole with that the trick so so yeah we have that they need so there's a lot of, lot of energy effort and time that has been put into
13:56:28 having a system built built. So yep.
13:56:29 So are you thinking that we need some central aiders around the beam pipe that are an automatic shutdown, we haven't in case you have that.
13:56:39 But you see, how do we integrate your system into the system we have already and what do we actually need to integrate you we need to read back your, the current from your power supplies or can you do it completely independently all those tiny details,
13:56:52 it will be better if we discuss them and we agree on what is the easiest thing to achieve and still being safe.
13:57:00 As soon as possible.
13:57:01 Now, but but let me come back to the question of gaining access, other than during a shutdown, if we have a problem with the central later.
13:57:10 or Miss cabling something that we discover when we're running our test experiment. Can we get stopped the beam and get in for an hour, during a time or is it not impossible to do.
13:57:24 We do that when days are in some point and that happens we can have it I can control and access they can force the right amount of time we do an access is a procedure and because we anyway I'm then going to go into all the details but yeah but that's
13:57:37 but also depends if you, if we're delivering into another experiment at the same time we might finish what the other experiment does because you know we're going to have a, we are building flash or so experiment in the, in the order is all going to depend
13:57:52 on on those details but in principle yes we normally if there is a problem we opened the email for short access for troubleshooting.
13:57:58 Okay so but for many hours we usually try to keep that for a specific maintenance day where we dedicate the entire day to maintenance. So you're thinking that, that there's going to be other experiments running at the same time, or even in the next year
13:58:13 or so, yes we are preparing for running, another experiment in the next year after September. Okay, which is, you know, if I don't think there's, there's going to be a lot of stress because not too many experiments is not going to be too much competition
13:58:33 but it's going to be a little bit of coordination to, to be done.
13:58:39 As usual, as usual.
13:58:42 So I guess one just based on the discussion.
13:58:46 Thomas one one calculation.
13:58:59 You should do is you know we take a 31 MEP electron and we run it into one micron tantalum foil. And we have all a distribution of particles that come out of it and obviously the charge ones.
13:59:07 We have to transport the beam through your the rest of your magnetic system is that mean neutrons we have estimates of neutron production we actually measured them at 100 MEV and photons at the fel For Currents have up to 4 million times, but presumably
13:59:28 we want to do this for your machine and somehow.
13:59:32 Do you have the capability to take to transmit the, the distribution of particles through the machine. After Yeah. Yep.
13:59:42 Yes. And also, even to do this calculation and we actually have some periods experience with doing those kind of calculations within phones, right because of a project that we, we never got built but something we learned a few years ago, and in body remembers
14:00:12 To do this calculation, I'm looking at you saw his books you smiling.
14:00:33 You know we way we knows how to make this guy well we don't have to determine today who's actually doing it but I think that'd be great if you if you imagine as I said, we have some experience with backgrounds, different energies, but we had a lot of,
14:00:43 we had a lot of problems from giant dipole rather GDPR neutron production, and most of the neutron production was from the dipole residences are called, and we measured it and we had, we calculated it and it agreed pretty well you know what are the factors
14:00:58 of two or something.
14:01:06 What is the maximum crime that that we would be dealing with in the, in the area. So, and the next year.
14:01:15 In the next year. Oh,
14:01:23 I need when takes sectors. Think about it.
14:01:29 You think you're talking average parents or picker and so what do you think I
14:01:41 think it's 300 micrograms don't think it's sort of a macro. Yeah, we have been in Iran so i i don't have those at the top of my middle name.
14:01:51 Give me one second just check.
14:02:06 Yeah, that's right.
14:02:08 Good.
14:02:13 Yeah man, it's a lot of courage to put on a foil, for sure.
14:02:19 We can certainly put less, but we can't put.
14:02:23 Yeah, but yeah.
14:02:24 Now can you raster the beam Do you have a capability to move it around or not easy. No. Okay, it's actually important that is a bit more complicated and it seems.
14:02:35 Okay.
14:02:36 But it's possible everything's always possible, but it's, it's not something that would, you know, if we, If you need dressing we need to know about.
14:02:45 I'm just asking what's available, I think, Jaan we are talking about spending the target that no Yeah, yeah.
14:02:58 Spending the tiredness, is an easy way to have his calling. Yep, I trivial just putting DC motor in stone.
14:03:04 The biggest problem out of that is that is that currently available on your target ladder, Douglas, know the current target letter doesn't have that. No.
14:03:15 Okay.
14:03:16 But, I mean, I couldn't believe that, yeah if we need.
14:03:23 If we need it, we can we would implement that.
14:03:28 Really, I mean, if you take a DC motor I know what it is I
14:03:35 mean, if there were funds available we could develop a raster system.
14:03:40 Well I you know I didn't, I didn't mean to imply we need an era, I don't know, but you know we just understanding what's possible.
14:03:51 I think it just gives you more problems downstream right because now you have just conscious an angle you have to still get it to the kingdom. You could have to rest in Vegas.
14:04:00 I do believe without having really early, I believe that having restaurant system is going to be easier than a moving target. Moving Target is actually not such a simple important, I think, you have you have to somehow trust with the, you know, the mechanics,
14:04:16 through the motor and direction. Yeah, and with the high level vacuum requirement that we have in the, in the beam line, I, I don't, I don't think he can do that.
14:04:29 Oh, it's going to be very challenging.
14:04:32 I mean, you don't want something with this cause for sure but DC.
14:04:40 Was that
14:04:42 trouble face or something with a controller that I mean that I don't think there's much much lighter load on that.
14:04:50 Okay, past the hour already. we probably should wrap it up,
14:04:58 said okay, it's gone the right thing. Yeah, we shouldn't just wonder if you're talking.
14:05:06 Yeah, I think this was very productive.
14:05:08 I think this was very productive. Certainly all the, the information on the time skills and, again, the issues we had the concerns that three concerns Thomas had and the design review, and I think we have.
14:05:20 We have a lot more information about, you know, how to go forward so I think clearly we have to go beyond considering we have to see while we if we can converge on it on a, you know, on a concept for the design experiment fairly quickly.
14:05:39 And so I guess we
14:05:44 will continue next week.
14:05:48 Yeah, just one thing.
14:05:50 Do we want to do it weekly or.
14:05:54 I think we need to want to make progress. Okay. And that's my own opinion.
14:06:00 I mean rather have a short weekly meeting Ben along to weekly No, I think we need a weekly meeting right now to figure out these things, all these, there's a lot of issues on the table.
14:06:10 Okay.
14:06:13 did Michael is, does this work from Michael Eden, I think it normally works but he's in Germany right now and actually yeah okay.
14:06:24 Okay, he talks to people at at to Whoa, whoa, whoa. Cool. Yeah.
14:06:31 So, so they can give us the software for the simulation for either the design of the, of the magnet. Oh, excellent.
14:06:52 Very good. Yeah, so for the others last week Michael Cole reported on him magnet kind of almost exactly what we want for the full experiment that was designed for Tohoku, and I watch the recording of that meeting last week.
14:06:55 I also me that's, we shouldn't extend the meeting to them but I want to insist on the fact that I try and we really I think we truly have cutting edge experience with designing a high resolution meeting systems, and I think they'll have the camera, high
14:07:13 resolution separated, that is under conditioning knowing working beautifully is to prove that we really know how to do those things in in a practical way that eventually works to the designer resolution.
14:07:29 So we, I am interested in making sure that the people with the competency or trial.
14:07:33 Look, that's, that's perfect. That's what we want. So, Ernie, Olaf is the lead engineer on the design so I think if you click connect him with the yeah let me see who they are.
14:07:50 Yeah, that'd be really good Thomas to connect, Ernie, end of the day, I'm a mechanical engineer and I don't know beam optics.
14:07:57 Yeah, I can tell you what you want, but how to get there. That's some somebody else problem.
14:08:19 the temperature of the coil, when it comes up and that it changes the, the, you know the exact shape of your main idea changes the field to the level that you may use something care about and it all those tiny details we've implemented fixes for for that
14:08:28 that so but you need to think about that. Anyway, I'm not going to go into the detail but you need to have the people from our engineering, physics group in the discussion so that the, the, the, bringing their experience with these high resolution magnets